in 2018 michigan citizens passed a ballot  initiative that would take the redistricting power   out of partisan politicians hands instead  a non-partisan citizens commission would   redistrict the state of michigan in a way that  truly represents the diversity of michiganders   this commission will listen to testimony from  historically underrepresented communities   to ensure that everyone has a voice now we will  hear from representatives from communities in   other states who can speak about the importance  of being part of the redistricting process   redistricting is an exciting opportunity for  communities to think about what representation   means for them what do we want from our elected  officials what's important to me what's important   to my family what's important to my neighbors  and other folks in my bigger community one thing   that's really exciting about redistricting is  it's a really important opportunity for people to   collaborate and coordinate across different  communities and groups one thing we see in   california and i know exists in many parts  of this country is a tremendous diversity   from the navajo nation um redistricting  in the navajo language is called   it's important that we participate in  the entire process of redistricting   and we learn about the various  principles that take place   it's also important to understand how the voting  rights act of the 1965 protects indigenous peoples   blacks hispanics asians and other minorities and  that helps people such as indigenous peoples to   formulate maps that we believe gives us a  chance to elect candidates of our choice why is it important to participate why is it  important to define yourself and your community   because if you don't define yourself then someone  else will try to define you only you can keep your   community together the people trying to create new  maps need your help to understand your community   boundaries use this opportunity to engage with  the commissioners and educate them about your   community sell your story we need to hear from  you with your help those creating the new maps can   understand and implement new districts that keep  communities together it's time we draw the line welcome and thank you for joining tonight's  policy talk at the ford school on redistricting in   michigan and the role of communities of interest  i'm john chamberlain a professor of emeritus   at the gerald r ford school of public  policy and i will be the modder for the   moderator for the event the introductory  video we just watched was produced by   two ford school students molly kalp  and mario syed and i think provides   a great introduction to what we're  going to be talking about tonight i want to thank connie cook  of voters not politicians   for recruiting and coordinating  this evening's presenters   and a special thank you goes to the sponsors  of tonight's event will be shown on this slide before we turn to the presentations i'd like  to note that we'll have about half an hour   of q a following the presentations we have  already heard from quite a few questions   with quite a few questions from nearly 1 000  individuals who registered for tonight's event   if you would like to submit a question you may  do so in one of the ways shown on the slide   so what will be covering in our time together  tonight as you must know if you've tuned in   in 2018 michigan voters approved proposal 2 which  amended the michigan constitution to bring about   important changes in the process for during the  districts for our congressional delegation and our   state house and state senate the new process open  and transparent and places citizens to the center   of redistricting it replaces a process in which  political parties legislators and their allies   selected new districts behind closed doors the  role of the citizens in the 2021 region streaking   is twofold first final decisions on the three  districting plans will be made by the michigan   independent citizens redistricting commission or  the micrc for short which are randomly selected   from more than 9 000 citizens who applied to  be on the commission they have been meeting   regularly since september second the constitution  assigns a high priority in the criteria that   govern redistricting to public input submitted  by communities of interest or cois for short we are interested in hearing from these  communities about how they would like their   districts to look this allows citizens  to communicate directly with the micrc   about how they would like to be represented in  congress and the state legislature tonight's   event focuses on these communities what they are  the role they play in the new process why they   should want to participate in the redistricting  process and how they can do that effectively   the presenters tonight will focus on four  topics the role and structure of the new micrc   the criteria the commission will use in drawing  districts and the description of communities   of interest why communities of interest want to  participate in the redistricting process and the   information for communities of interest about how  they can communicate effectively with the micrc   our first two presenters are from no  voters not politicians the organization   that organized the campaign for proposal 2 and  is now working to support the participation of   communities of interest in the new redistricting  process we will hear first from nancy wang   the executive director of legislative politicians  who will discuss the background of the miss   or m-i-c-r-c and bring us up to date  on his progress sandy sereni elser   a vnp volunteer who is leading the np's  educational training program will follow   nancy with a discussion of the criteria the  commission will use in drawing districts   and the description of communities of interest  i'll now turn the screen over to nancy thank you so much john i'm nancy and voters not  politicians is the grassroots non-partisan group   that formed in 2016 over facebook to end  partisan gerrymandering in michigan and our   dream was really to replace what we had which was  our partisan politicians were taking redistricting   which is a process where every 10 years we take  the census data from the federal government   and we need to redraft or redraw our election  district lines to make sure that our congressional   districts state house and state senate  districts have the same number of people them   and the politicians were taking that power and  giving themselves an unfair advantage by kind of   splitting up you know taking voters and  really splitting up our communities or   whatever they had to do to make sure that they  could create safe districts for themselves and   their political parties and what we wanted to  see our dream really was to replace that and   put in place citizens whose whose goal was really  to take us back to um representative democracy   and kind of what redistricting is supposed to do  which was to keep our communities together and to   um to help us you know stay with people that are  in our geographic area that share interest with   us and allow us to elect a representative that  would take our interest and advocate for us in   lansing and dc and to be sitting here now and  for all of us to be sitting and talking about the   new citizens commission that we have in michigan  and to talk about how the job of that commission   is to in fact go out this year and take input from  our communities to find out where we are in order   to draw maps that keep us intact well that really  is um that's really exciting and um and surreal   but in fact we do have a citizen commission now  thanks to the vote of 61 of michiganders uh in   2018 to adopt this constitutional amendment uh  we had a super majority of michigan voters that   were in independence democrats and republicans all  throughout the state that wanted this reform and   um and it's and it's you know first started  meeting in september it's got 13 members   um and it's got four republican members four  democrats and five that are neither republicans   or democrats so they can be independents or  they can be third party um supporters and   in their diverse group um you know geographically  they represent kind of the diversity of michigan   um and they've been you know they have regular  meetings every thursday anyone can tune in you   can watch in real time on youtube or facebook um  they they um welcome public comment you can submit   public comment either by requesting to speak or  submitting a written comment and their job is to   to carry out the requirements that we put  in the michigan constitution and that really   is you know to draw maps again around public input  they have to learn for themselves um you know   from the public where our communities are where  our boundaries are what interests are at stake   why we want to be kept together and then they  need to draw the maps that reflect and respect   our communities instead of splitting them apart  um they need to take you know public input all   along the way they need to act in a way that  reinforces the public trust so there's no more   backroom deals there's no you know there's no  um decision making where they can be taking   political parties or candidates and trying to  give them an unfair advantage that's explicitly   prohibited now by the constitutional amendment  um and you know they have to be 100 transparent   which is is definitely you know absolutely the  opposite of what we used to have um every every   conversation they have about redistricting matters  you know every conversation they have amongst   themselves or any member of the public um has  to be in an open meetings and the commission um   there's other requirements in the constitutional  amendment as well that governs their conduct so   they can't you know the commissioners themselves  can't kind of draw maps however they want um they   can't kind of replace their own values you know  and and inject them into the process um they can't   like i said give one party or their  preferred candidate an advantage over another   all of that you know they need to follow to  the letter exactly what's in the amendment and   yeah and and it's going very very very well  i'm happy to say heard time and time again at   their meetings um all of the commissioners really  stressing how seriously they take their um their   duty that they know that you know they really are  carrying out the will of the voters and i think   it's going to be a really exciting process and i  hope that programs like these really encourage all   of us to participate and to give our input so that  the maps really respect us and allow us to elect   the representatives of our choice so with that  i will turn it over to sandy sereni elser of vnp   good evening and thank you nancy and thank you  john um my name is john mentioned my name is   sandy cerini elser and i'm a volunteer with voters  not politicians and this evening i'm going to just   run through the seven criteria that the commission  has to follow when it draws voting district lines   and uh the criteria are in rank order of  importance so not only do they have certain   criteria they have to follow but also they have  to give a higher weight to certain criteria that   more more weight to federal laws than um to uh  compact districts so as you can see from this   slide the seven criteria are listed here the  first one is they have to follow federal laws   and the two most important components of this are  equal population in voting districts which we all   know is why we have the census every 10 years  so that we can re balance the district so that   my vote in district 1 is the  same as your vote in district 2.   the other component of federal laws is that the  compliance with the voting rights act of 1967   which you probably know prohibits discrimination  based on race gender religion national origin   and disability the second criteria is that the  districts have to be contiguous that just means   that they all parts of the district have to touch  each other so you can't have a little island   of a district up in the u.p and have the balance  of the district down in southeast michigan the   third component is communities of interest  which we're going to touch on in a minute   um the fourth component is re prohibits  giving disreported proportionate advantage   to any political party so no particular  party has any advantage over the other   the fifth component is no candidate advantage  which prohibits protecting incumbents the sixth   component is that the commission needs to consider  existing city township and county boundaries   and finally the seventh component is that the  districts have to be reasonably compact that means   no more snaking districts no more districts like  the 14th u.s congressional district that starts on   the southern river boundary of detroit and winds  through detroit up through southfield and ends up   in pontiac no more snaking districts like the 76  house state state house district that runs from   north of grand rapids through a tiny corridor  through grand rapids and ends up in the southern   suburbs and the reason for this is that um  sometimes politicians when they drew the maps   were doing it in a way where they would  divide up community members so they would   have a safe district as nancy mentioned and  unfortunately this divided our communities which   is now not going to be a permitted um criteria  the commission needs to consider communities of   interest and make those districts compact on slide  seven you see that we highlight the communities of   interest as high priority third priority and this  is why it's so important for us to let communities   know that the commission would like to hear from  them they'd like to know where the community lives   where their geographic boundaries are and what  their purposes are what's their common purpose   and now on slide eight we're going to see what is  a community of interest and i'm going to spend a   few seconds reading the definition of communities  of interest it's very short but very important   it says that districts shall reflect the state's  diverse population and communities of interest   communities of interest may include but shall not  be limited to populations that share cultural or   historical characteristics or economic interests  and this part is really important communities   of interest do not include relationships  with political parties public officials   or candidates for public office so what exactly  is a community of interest it really is just your   community it's my community it's our neighbor's  community it could be your school district it   could be your church community it could be the  farmers that bring the approaches to the market   and we like to tell communities that for purposes  of redistricting all the community needs is to   have a specific geographic area and a common  purpose and we also like to remind communities   that you don't have to draw the district lines  these district lines are going to be drawn by the   commission and your only job is to tell the  commission where your community is and what   your purpose is and the commission is going to  take all the other seven uh other all the other   six characteristics that we just talked about and  they're going to take all the information from all   the communities and they're going to come up with  the district maps that we think are going to be   non-partisan fair and help us elect  officials that our communities want to have   and now on slide i think we're on slide nine   we're going to have a little bit more about  what is the community of interest and these   show the some of the examples of shared economic  interests where do you work where do you shop   what kind of transportation do you use are your  roads okay do you have a amtrak line do you   have good bus service do you have environmental  concerns and like for example an environmental   concern could be a community with a goal of trying  to remove pay fast from the huron river watershed   the huron river and its tributaries and the land  that drains into it um are the community and then   the purpose is to lobby legislators to adopt laws  that prohibit use of chemicals that create people   that allow pfas to seep into our waters and  contaminate our fish and our drinking water   and finally we're looking at slide 10 now where we  have some examples of shared cultural or historic   interests as you can see there's a tiny little  picture of the eastern market which is a historic   market that brings people together there's also  town centers there's school districts there's   church communities and all of these are types of  communities and we hope that these communities   are going to talk to the commission tell the  commission where they're located and who they are   um there's one example that i think is very  important it's the farmington and farmington   hills school district that was it's a it's  a joint school district for both communities   and uh the district was split right down the  middle in the last um redistricting and so these   community members my guess is they are going to  want to get together and tell the commission that   they would really love to have their just their  school communities all together in one district so   they can lobby the legislators for the things that  they would like such as perhaps better funding for   schools so now i am going to just wrap this up by  saying that we are working wanting to work with   communities and encourage them to think about what  fosters a sense of connection in your community   what does your community have in common policy  goals and what does your community need from state   and federal legislators and we're going to hope  the community members remember these simple things   that all the commission needs to know is who you  are and where you're located so now i'm going to   turn the program back over to john so he can he  can introduce some real live community leaders   who are going to tell you why their communities  are working on the redistricting process john thank you nancy and sandy uh i hope   that that clarifies for some of you what  communities of interest are or or are not all communities of interest are welcome  indeed urged to participate in this process   school districts at sandy mentioned  are communities of interest   so are the service areas for regional  hospitals a tourist attraction   near one of our great lakes a neighborhood  association or a group of owners with homes around   the lake who are concerned about water quality  communities of interest that are already organized   the staff resources familiarity with the public  policy process will find it relatively easy to   participate in this process but communities of  interest without these advantages are urged to   join them there is no published directory  of communities of interest so it is only by   providing input to the commission that a community  of interest can make its views heard so don't run   the risk that your community of interest will  be among those that remain invisible and silent   don't count yourself out just because you're new  to a process like this instead count yourself in   we will now hear from three individuals who  represent communities of interest in michigan   to talk about why they are participating in the  redistricting process and why that's important   to them our presenters are carmen williams  the executive director of oakland forward   non-profit that works to provide opportunities  for individuals with a focus on people of color   in oakland county rebecca islam the executive  director of asian and pacific islander american   vote michigan which works through forums and voter  registration to increase civic participation by   asian and pacific islander americans and  andy helmbolt a longtime battle creek   resident and a former city commissioner who works  on regional development we will begin with kermit   hello hello hello uh thank you so much  john for this opportunity i'd like to thank   uh first of all there's not politicians not only  getting this pass but that they're doing to make   sure that these lines are fair and inclusive  for everybody i also like to thank all those   sponsors for today's event it's really briefly  i wanted to talk about i'm the city council   president and the city of pontiac which was  mentioned which happens to be in the 14th   congressional district and when you start talking  about communities there's uh one of the things   uh that we have to talk about is your pineapple  doesn't have anything in common with gross point   but if you look at our congressional district  we're part of it and so these communities   have been gerrymandered uh from  the beginning i want to talk about   looking forward and focuses on making sure that  black and brown communities are taken care of and   one of the things that we need to do is to make  sure that our people people um are taken care of   since three fifths uh law in this country  african-americans have been underrepresented   it's an opportunity to make sure not only that  they get represented but they get a seat at the   table some of these districts let's talk about  our state house have not been changed in 30 or 40   years so that's one of the things that we need to  talk about in our community so thank you so much   uh john for this opportunity i know my internet is  a little shaky right now but i want to encourage   everybody to get involved to get focused and make  sure that they participate in this commission   it doesn't matter who you are uh what income level  you have but make sure that you let your voice be   heard so communities can represent you uh the way  that you need to be represented thank you so much thank you kermit i think we heard you for the  most part hi everyone my name is rebecca islam   i am the executive director of api vote  michigan and we are a nonprofit graduate   organization that is committed to justice  and as john mentioned equity for the asian   american community in michigan and we do  that through graduate mobilization and our   impact in the api community involves increasing  voter registration advocating for public policy   providing censors education that we just had  last year assisting folks with citizenship   applications developing youth and leadership  and building coalitions and we work to ensure   that all asian americans and pacific islander  americans can exercise their right to vote   and make sure that they have a part of this  democracy and my organization is excited to be   part of the redistricting effort here in michigan  as our democracy is deeply dependent on it   and ensures that representation and each of us  are represented so moving on to the next slide okay so we are extremely proud of the work  that we did in mobilizing the api committee   for the 2020 election apias have proved to be  crucial in influencing what we all know was a   historic election and our accomplishments included  registering over 10 000 api voters engaging over   four hundred thousand apia voters which led to a  historic api voters turnout amongst our population   which has led us to continue our efforts  into redistricting next slide please so now that we are here with redistricting  um what's at stake there is just so much at   stake as you guys already heard um there's so  much at stake when we talk about redistricting   it ensures that we have political representation  that more accurately reflects our communities in   the long term this can also affect things  from funding assigned you mentioned funding   to programs to services for vulnerable communities  like the api community in our community   particularly there's a canadian hemptronics that  does not want marijuana dispensaries in this city   and fair and accurate mapping will give that  community the opportunity to decide if they   want these dispersaries in their community or  not and it is naive to think that a marijuana   dispensary in one district affects only those  residents who live in close proximity of that   especially this country will affect  a much larger radius and therefore   individuals within um expended radios should  definitely also have a say in if they want that   business in their community or not and that's just  one example that demonstrate how redistricting can   impact someone's ability to express their need in  a community with others also services and programs   should address the needs of a community the needs  of a community should be looked at collectively   and across district lines if there are significant  numbers of individuals who have the same needs   we should be addressing those needs  regardless of what side of the district   they resign on redistricting is just a way that  helps us to correct those issues and for apias   we are part of the fabric of this state and  we've seen that that in the last election we   need people to know that we are not statistically  insignificant which individuals might argue   if they're looking at the current map district  by district we are a significant mass of voting   block of michigan and we need to make sure that we  are seen as such and that we each play a part in   redistricting efforts to ensure that we also  benefit from the programs from the services   the system that our tax dollars are contributed  to um can i get the next slide please okay so api vote michigan is working to  recruit community members to get involved   in this employing work we are hosting  a series of communities presentations   that explain the importance of mapping to our  community members in targeted api languages   we have plans to present  proposed redistricting methods   as you all know community voices and input is  so critical to redistricting if community voices   and actual residents of these communities  are not at the table as these maps are drawn   those resident concerns will remain invisible and  when i say actual residents of these communities   um i'm not talking about advocates  who live in other zip codes   um do not you know we if community members don't  if our actual community members do not set up the   table and express their needs those needs will  simply not be addressed and we know government   solutions are only effective if communities  show up and come to the table and make sure   that their concerns are voiced and their issues  are heard and i think following the 2020 election   that each of us understand the weight of each of  our elections and each of our votes and how we can   make an impact and the difference we watched  he read states that have been dominated by   one party for decades turned blue and then there  were states like our state michigan and georgia   where disfranchised communities and black and  indigenous and people of communi people of   communities made a difference and as we take part  we can have real change we can see real change   and my hope is that all of our communities will  show up and participate in redistricting efforts   however and wherever possible so that we can make  sure our government continues to work on behalf   of the people that it's supposed to represent  and with that i will hand it to andy thank you yeah amen thank you rebecca um so i'm here to give  an example of of how uh my community in battle   creek has has been affected uh and our community  of interest here as we see it has been affected by   by the way that lines have been drawn and here  we have we have what's kind of the the opposite   problem that folks like kermit have in  southeast michigan where you have a very   very large population center that has to get cut  up into different districts out state michigan   such as places like battle creek  we have the opposite problem where   we have to draw district lines that encompass many  different communities together into a district   um and we feel in battle creek that that has been  done pretty poorly over the last uh three decades   or so and that uh that's it's been done  poorly for you know political advantages um   so let me tell you a little bit about our  our community of interest here and how we see   ourselves in battle creek and calhoun county uh  aligned more closely with the kalamazoo community   in kalamazoo county who we have been separated  from when it comes to a u.s congressional district   uh and when i say we you know i'm i'm speaking  generally here about people from battle creek   i don't intend to speak on behalf of all people  from battle creek in canton county you know i'm   i'm just i'm here on on good faith that i have  you know as a resident here i have some sense   for for what people feel about how how they're  being represented so who we are we are in battle   creek calvin county we are an i-94 interstate 94  community uh our when we when we go other places   and we think about the other communities we have  affinity with we think of other communities along   the east-west i-94 corridor uh kalamazoo being  the the largest and closest only 20 miles to the   west on on 994. uh to the point earlier about even  environmental geography the kalamazoo river flows   through our our city and into kalamazoo so when it  comes to environmental concerns and water quality   uh when we had the enbridge oil spill  here in calton county you know that oil   that oil flowed flowed downhill to kalamazoo um  but not just that uh the whole the region here   from an economic standpoint thinking  of economic community of interest   you know our our our our regional economic  development efforts are partnered with   kalamazoo we share major employers the labor  pool commutes back and forth between kalamazoo   far more than that it commutes outside of those  two communities our health care system our two   major health care systems uh here in in southwest  michigan serve battle creek and kalamazoo   education education system you know if you're  if you're going to stay at home for a four-year   university here in battle creek you're probably  going to attend western michigan university   that's based in kalamazoo and has some of its  programming like its aviation school in battle   creek transportation i mentioned the interstate  uh our the regional airport here the international   airport is on the edge of kalamazoo it is called  the kalamazoo battle creek international airport   um but then when it comes to sort of more informal  things like just recreation in le and leisure   uh if if there are things that i want want to do  with my family the that battle creek doesn't offer   more likely than not i'm going to kalamazoo to  do that just this weekend my wife and i took our   daughter to an arcade in kalamazoo and went to  a burger joint over there that we hadn't been to   that people were talking about or you know if  i want to go over by on canned diced tomatoes   at costco i go to kalamazoo to do that so that  you know that is the community of interest that   we're building uh you know building an effort  here in in battle creek and calhoun county   to testify to the the mic rc but the history here  is that you know many years ago and for many years   we were with kalamazoo in a congressional district  but starting in the 90s that changed we calhoun   county got put in uh with a more south central  district they went from calhoun county over to   washington county and so that's that was oriented  around 94 yes but we didn't really consider people   here didn't really feel like that that district  felt like home to us we were battle creek was the   largest metropolitan area by far in that district  and yet out of the 10 terms 10 congressional terms   during that time only two of those congress  people were from the battle creek area   and so when it came time to redistrict again  10 years ago we got moved out of that so the   little bit of competitiveness that existed in that  district was taken care of by calhoun county in   battle creek being taken out of that district and  put into the grand rapids congressional district   which of course for the last five terms has  been represented by someone from grand rapids   um and you know grand rapids isn't super far  away from us but we certainly do not have the   the north south affinity or feel a community of  interest connection with the community of grand   rapids to anywhere near the extent that we do  with kalamazoo and you know as i talk to people   and you know this is sort of the common feeling  around battle creek but before you know before   preparing for this i talked to some folks around  town just to check in and you know hey what's it   been like having someone represent us from from  grand rapids well it's not been good we don't   people just don't get the feeling that that  we're represented by someone from our community   and and really you know all partisanship aside if  if i'm represented by someone from the other party   okay that's that might be a personal issue for me  but from a larger sense from a sense of wanting   to have trust in our in our government and  the people that represent us people should   feel like their representatives come from their  community and we just haven't had that here for   30 years in battle creek and so that's our  goal in making you know making testimony and   public inputs to the commission with that i would  thank you for your time and turn it back over to   john and if folks have questions about  what's you know how things are going   here or what we're planning to do we'd be  happy to take them later thank you john thank you kermit rebecca and andy uh   for telling us about three communities of interest  and and how they will take part in the process   there are thousands of potential communities of  interest in michigan that can take advantage of   the same opportunity that these organizations  are going to take advantage of so i think it's   important that everybody think seriously  about whether they participate we urge you to   think about what communities of  interest are important in your lives   and being thinking about how these communities  can convey their views to the micrc   you can begin by identifying the boundaries  of your community of interest on a map   and articulating the shared interests that define  your community of interest and you might sketch   in your current congressional state senate and  state health districts like andy did and learn   something about how well they serve your interest  in the districts and you could look at how the   history of those districts changed over time as  andy's did in most cases it will be important that   a community of interest to a community that remain  intact in new districts because that will provide   the best opportunities for your representatives to  get to know your community of interest and allow   you to communicate with them about policies that  you care about think also about other communities   of interest in your area that share your bonds  and policy goals as well as those that don't   and consider what your preferred districts might  look like you can include information like that   in the material you submit to the commission  we now turn to the final topic on our agenda   how communities of interest can prepare to be  effective participants in the public participation   phase of the redistricting process to talk about  this i'll turn the screen over to connie cook   who is a long time volunteer for voters and all  politicians who currently leads their community   mapping program she will discuss how communities  of interest can develop and present effective   testimony to the micrc about their desires  for their new districts take it away connie thank you john i i thought it was a real treat  to hear from the three representatives of   communities of interest they speak with passion  about their need to be represented better and   it is interesting to see how important  that is for various communities in michigan   what i'd like to discuss is how communities should  go about preparing to engage in the redistricting   process so this slide slide 17 shows you that the  timeline is going to be very tight on the right   it says the new maps will be used in the 2022  elections in the middle it says they have to be   approved by november 1st and on the left of the  screen it says at least 10 public hearings must   be held before the maps are drafted then five more  after they're drafted and before they're approved   that would be a tight timeline at best  but the census has made it more difficult   covid slowed down the census process and rather  than getting census data in february or march   as we'd anticipated we won't have it now until  september 30th that means that the mic rc will be   unable to meet this set of deadlines and we trust  that a court will step in and provide a solution   in any case it's important for communities of  interest to be totally prepared when the public   hearings begin we expect that those hearings will  begin in may and will probably go through part of   june there will be as john says thousands  of communities of interest eager to testify   eager to submit maps to the commission so smart  communities are going to get started right now   on strategizing about how to effectively  describe themselves and map themselves   the commission will soon announce a portal and  a process for submitting maps and testimony   and the commission of course is obliged to  consider all the testimony that's submitted to it   let's go on to slide number 18 it talks about  mapping tools and we in michigan have multiple   tools that we can use for the mapping process  there's no one tool that we have to use   but the one that voters not politicians has  especially liked is called representable.org   you can google it you can try it out it helps  communities of interest tell the commission   about themselves who they are and where they are  it is a product of the princeton gerrymandering   group which is part of princeton university and it  is free a very good thing it has been vetted all   across the country and we've had over a hundred  beta testers working on it here in michigan   it lets the communities describe their shared  interests and it is relatively easy to use it   provides a digital map with some landmarks and  users can click to include regions in the map   census block by census block  representable calculates the population   and the area of your map for you as you as you  create it and then it produces a hard copy that   you can email you can print out you can send  to the commission when you're ready to do so   it has youtube videos that explain how to use  this mapping tool and try to make it easy and if   you have tech questions about representable right  now some of the staff are on the chats on youtube   and facebook and they can reply to you with  technical answers that i can't possibly give you   i want to talk about a misconception  and sandy alluded to it earlier we   find as we speak to groups about this mapping  process that many people think they have to   actually draw a voting district a congressional  district or a state senate district or   a state house district but that's not necessary  communities just have to draw themselves   decide where their boundaries are and draw  themselves giving their shared concerns   their shared interests to justify why they  constituted community and want to be kept together   most communities of interest are  not big enough to comprise an entire   district but the community of interest can  suggest to the commission other cities like   battle creek and kalamazoo that would like to be  together other groups that have shared interests   they can ask for landmarks such as industrial  plants or universities that they'd like to have   in their districts or they can say we don't want  to be with this other community that has very   different interests from ours you need to tell  the commission what your preferences are slide 19   shows the difference between a representable  map and on the right a paper and pencil map   vnp has paper and pencil maps with some  landmarks available for groups to use   if you'd prefer to do that rather than  an online mapping tool but it's just   fine to use a aaa map or a school district map or  realtors map or a back of the envelope map any map   is okay because the mic rc will soon have mapping  experts who can take your back of the envelope map   and turn it into something that looks  as good as the fancier online versions if you represent a community of interest you're  likely to want to know how you can get help with   your strategy for presenting to the commission  besides vnp there are several other non-partisan   groups providing support for communities they  include the michigan non-profit association   and promote the vote and the league of women  voters additionally we see popping up various   party groups political party groups that are  eager to help communities with their strategy   for addressing the commission i am most familiar  with what voters not politicians is doing so   i'll tell you about that we are facilitating  conversations for communities of interest to   help them decide where their boundaries should  be and what their shared interests really are   and we're providing training for mapping  either online or with paper and pencil   we are offering town halls for the general  public to learn about the redistricting process   and you can go to the voters not politicians  website and sign up for a presentation from us   on redistricting if you would  like one we also offer much deeper   engagement for some communities of interest  like the three from which or from whom   you've heard tonight apia vote oakland forward  and the calhoun county battle creek group   vnp does have some small grants available  and we will provide them to communities   that need some financial support in order  to engage in the redistricting process   when we do presentations we are careful with  the cois to involve someone from the coi   in our presentations we don't know all your issues  we don't know exactly what your representation   ought to be but your members do so we try to  include people who are knowledgeable about your   particular concerns and will customize the  presentation for you using slide number 20   i want to conclude by discussing why communities  of interest should participate in redistricting   the opening video said if you don't define  yourselves others will try to define you   you might think that everything is fine for your  community right now you're perfectly happy with   your district why change it well it may change  on its own if you don't speak up and ask for   what you currently have for example the michigan  tribal reservations are all intact right now not   split in various pieces but there's  no guarantee that that will continue   they need to go to the mic rc  and ask that that should continue   if that's what they want and there are plenty  of examples of communities that have been split   through the redistricting process sandy mentioned  farmington and farmington hills that's certainly a   good example oakland university is split down the  middle two different districts if you can imagine   and there's a mobile home park in ann arbor that  is split down the middle because the partisans   who drew the maps wanted a few more republicans  over here and a few more democrats over there   so they just went into the mobile home park and  and picked out the people who had to be moved   we are hoping that redistricting will make things  work better for you that it will give you better   representation that it will give you better  elected officials people who care about you will   meet with you understand your concerns and that  the result will be better government programs and   services we want your tax dollars to work better  for you so i want to end now with slide number 21.   this slide highlights article 1  section 1 of the michigan constitution   which has become voters not politicians motto  political power is inherent in the people and   we expect that the redistricting process is going  to give the people of michigan the political power   that they need and deserve thank you all for  taking time to hear about the redistricting   process and i'm going to hand the mic back to  john who will lead our q a session thank you thank you connie um if you are new to the process  of redistricting this may seem very complicated   but i urge you to take advantage of groups  and organizations like vnp that will   offer help and advice that it's not as hard as  it looks and it's important to your community   we're now going to turn to q a  for the remainder of our time the slide tells you how you can get a question  in i should note that answers by tonight's   participants reflect their perspectives only  but in any way those of the commissioners   joining us to direct your questions to tonight's  presenters is miriam saeed a master of public   policy student who will graduate this spring  and who was one of the students who produced the   video that opened this event welcome marion  let's get started with the first question   hello everyone i'm very excited to be here and  honored to have been able to partner with vnp   to create a video highlighting the importance  of cois during michigan's redistricting process   i'll be monitoring moderating the q a portion of  tonight's event and read the questions that you   all have for our amazing panel of community  leaders our first question is for nancy   what challenges do the pandemic and census data  delay posed for ensuring adequate engagement of   communities of interest in the redistricting  process what is being done to address them   well certainly the pandemic has led to the census  delay um like connie mentioned and just recently   we heard that the census data for michigan  may not be coming to us until september 30th   but honestly uh where we're kind of emphasizing  is that this really does give us uh an opportunity   and perhaps more of an opportunity more  time for us to engage our communities   so you know i know that this is a matter that you  know how we go about it whether it's zoom whether   it's in person perhaps soon these are issues that  we in kind of the good government space are always   talking about with our outreach engagement and i  know that the commission also has it from a bind   and it's also discussing it um in their meetings  i think right now everyone's kind of hoping that   we'll get to in person soon um you know in  california and other states when they've done   this in the past they've had you know very very  well attended um public meetings where you have   hundreds of people kind of lining up to give  their testimony and that's really powerful   um experience but you know if not like or  in the in the kind of meantime as we're as   we're waiting for uh the pandemic to see then um  they are gonna and we are as well um as outreach   groups going to explore as many different ways  with through you know ethic media and through   zoom and through telephone and any other ways  that we can reach out to groups as possible thank you for that would anyone else in the panel  care to answer this question okay so our next question  is for our community leaders   kermit rebecca and andy how might  the commission best prioritize   overlapping communities of interest of multiple  cultural ethnic or shared economic interests   are some communities to be considered  more important than others go ahead kermit hello yeah um just to tackle that i think that  uh the commission should really consider those   who have been disenfranchised the most through  this process i think when you start taking into   consideration especially like communities of color  or people who have cultural interests that are the   same i think you make better lines and you make  better voting for everybody that's much more fair great thank you this next question is for connie i have heard  that communities of interest will have only a few   minutes at public hearings to offer testimony they  will also be able to submit additional materials   in written form if this is the case what  should coi focus on in their oral testimonies connie you're muted i think it is true that they will have a limit  on the number of minutes for each community of   interest so it's particularly important that each  community strategize in advance and decide what   its key issue is what its shared interest is what  really binds it and come before the commission   with a an articulate impassioned explanation of  why it's a real community and in terms of mapping   uh it would be very good for the community to cite  the data gathering process it used was there a   panel of community leaders who decided where the  borders should be was there a demographer whose   expertise was used was there a survey of the  population how did the community decide where   his boundaries should lie use their time  well that's why it's important to start early great our next question is for nancy can  communities of interest be used nefariously   to isolate or exclude people so the concept of  communities of interest and actually that that   specific term as well is used in the majority  of redistricting processes in the united   states across the country and the idea is  and the way it's written in our constitution   is is as expansive as possible so the idea is  really to be inclusive and to allow members   of a community to kind of define themselves  as long as they're geographically connected   and they have a shared interest and of course they  need to articulate to the commission what that   interest is and it can't be discriminatory and  it can't be for political gain you know to give   one partisan uh or party an advantage over another  but otherwise it can it's it's however a community   wants to define itself with via historical you  know shared cultural interests um economic or   or frankly any other interest that um you  know that the drafters haven't you know hadn't   anticipated at the time of drafting it really  is up to the community members to kind of define themselves go ahead andy yeah so i think one  one thing that's important to understand you   know if you do some ghouling on googling how  gerrymandering works is that one method of   gerrymandering or to give to give advantage is  to pack strix or just google district packing   which is you know taking a group of people who all  might be may well define themselves as a community   interest and pack them all into one district have  the other group majority group be able to control   all the rest of the districts thus minimizing  the pop minimizing the power of the folks that   you just packed all in the one district so that's  there's a balancing act that that has to happen   with the overall principle being what nancy  just said about making sure people people are   engaged in that that people have power and that  the whole system is fair to to make sure that   we're there our government represents everyone but  yes the concept can certainly be used nefariously this next question is for our community leaders  what advice do you have for people who may be a   part of a community of interest that is not well  organized how do we get started go ahead rebecca   so what thank you mary um um so what's great about  living in michigan beside our lovely snow is that   as you've heard here today there are organizations  that are that already exist and have done the   difficult work of laying the foundation you know i  would reach out to any of us here you should also   view us as a resource that you can point um in  the right direction the excuse and that we can   point you in the right direction and if there is  a group that is more appropriate for you we direct   you there and one of the goals we all share is  that to get more community members involved in   redistricting and one of the benefits of doing  this work during the pandemic that we've all   leveraged technology um you know we've all became  zoom experts to better connect with people across   weekends um it was a little more challenging  before but we did it anyways right um and with   technology it helps us to bridge those geographic  distances and better connect and mobilize um and   again lastly um you know when doing this work  i would definitely say reach out to what is   not politicians they are the experts and they  can definitely plug you in where it's needed   and there's a ton of resources out there and we  can help you get connected with those resources   um so all you have to do is contact  one of us and we'll get you started that cover it okay well i would just like to add  one thing to that you've already started today   by being part of this town hall meeting  because uh it really takes you thinking   about what's important to you your  grocery store your church or whatever   and so uh the great thing about voters not  politicians and everybody that's doing this work   is this regular people doing it so you don't  have to be elected or been in political office   a poli-sci major you can be a regular  folk at the grocery store and get it done exactly i love that and this next question is  for nancy given that voters favoring the two   major parties tend to be concentrated  in particular areas of the state   for example republicans in rural areas including  the thumb and western and northern parts of the   state while democrats in urban areas including  southeast michigan will it be possible to   draw compact and geographically coherent  districts that have competitive elections nancy you're muted sorry as i mentioned during my part you know the  the goal behind the amendment is to kind of go   back to the idea of representative government and  and it's to keep our communities together so that   we can vote for the representative of our choice  um and that's why communities of interest rank   so high in the criteria that the commission has  to think about when it's trying to draw district   lines which is to keep our communities intact um  and then farther down the list our compactness   and um and uh and competitiveness actually is not  on the list of criteria and that was by design   um competitiveness for competitiveness sake is  not um you know the goal behind fair and impartial   redistricting it's a matter of of again you  know keeping people who live within an area who   historically with you know gerrymandering for a  lot of our underrepresented communities got taken   you know their voting power was taken away and  it's and put back that voting power um in those   communities we have seen in other states however  that have independent commissions that you do see   more competition you see you know new candidates  you know enter the races because incumbents are   not protected you do see when you know districts  um are aligned in a way where you're not just   specifically and intentionally carving people out  by party and kind of you know determining what the   election outcomes will be that there are more  districts that are mixed um you know in ways that   that they weren't under gerrymandering so i think  you'll see more competitive districts as sort of   like a result of fair redistricting but it's not  you know your your your um goal to start with thank you for that connie do you think the  commission is likely to be responsive to a coastal   community of interest that requests that it  be placed in a district with other coastal   communities because of their common interest  in tourism rather than being included in a   district with inland communities that is such  an interesting question i remember when the   california commissioners were here talking about  california districts they talked about that   long district along the pacific coast route  1 a snake going down the edge of the state   with coastal residents primarily in the district  that is certainly a shared interest being on the   coast worrying about beach erosion worrying about  water quality worrying about tourism but there are   plenty of inland communities that may be worrying  about many of those same things as well uh   certainly in northern michigan the inland  communities in the leelanau peninsula for example   are also tourist meccas and they share  many of the concerns of the coastal   communities on that peninsula i i think that it  will be important for the commission to decide   what the shared interests are and to try not  to exclude people who have a shared interest   with other communities so if the coastal people  worry about tourism and the inland people have   the same concerns about tourism and need the  same kinds of policies to maximize the benefits   the commission may choose to  put them together we will see sandy this next question is for  you or andy i'm sorry apologize   are there guidelines for the physical shape of  districts is the goal to create districts with   populations with similar demographics educational  and professional levels and or community interests   or to develop districts with balanced  political points of view and this is for sandy   oh thank you miriam um so there are of course  as i mentioned in the presentation there are   guidelines for the physical shape of the districts  they have to be um reasonably compact and they um   can't really be snaking the way that they  are now um so that's the compactness and   they also have to be contiguous so you they all  have to be together touching each other um so   i guess there's kind of two parts to this  question um the goal in the creating the distance   is usually generally communities will want to  stay together so there they will have similar   demographics and educational and  population issues um however um   the commission is going to need to balance that  against the political um issues they can't have   partisan gerrymandering they can't allow  any polit uh one political party to have a   a special advantage over another political  party so it is going to take a lot of balancing   for the commission to come up with um what  they think is right but generally i expect   that the communities will submit their maps and  the commission is then going to layer them out and   as we mentioned a community generally will not  comprise a whole district um so there will be um   uh they'll they'll be diversity not only be the  community they'll be with several communities   there'll be there's there'll be diversity  so um it's going to be interesting to see   what happens um i and i wish i could tell you  what the answer is going to be but i don't know thank you for that so i just want to let for  everyone who is viewing right now that we're   watching the stream of comments and we'll do  our best to get to as many questions as possible   a lot are coming in but um we're  trying to get to as many as we can   and our next question is for nancy people in jail  can't vote when drawing district lines are people   in prison included in that area's population  demographics um prison gerrymandering for example   um for example if a latino person is arrested  in ferndale and serving time in alpena   where will they count in terms of  population data for district lines   right so in michigan there is this issue of  prison gerrymandering because um the people   in the jails are counted in that  district where they are where the   prison is located um not where they reside  and so you have an issue where for example   um for returning citizens um they are not you  know once they're returning to their community   um they were not sort of counted in in the  sense of um having their interests you know   take into account when those um districts  around their residency were were created   um i believe that there is a um a house bill  that was just introduced to um that kind of   speaks to this issue and i know that there are a  lot of reform groups um in other states that have   successfully you know launched campaigns to um to  undo what they call you know prison gerrymandering   but in michigan we still have the issue of  of having people counted where the jail is sandy this next question is for  you with increasing polarization   it seems communities are becoming  more organized around political views   will the commission try to make  districts politically diverse well i think that's similar to the question i  answered before and but it's a very interesting   question um so we're probably talking again  about uh the rural districts being perhaps more   republican and the uh cities being more democratic  i'm not sure that's what's intended but um   that there cannot be overt political favoritism  um partisan favoritism so um that commission is   definitely not going to allow that however a  community could say that we are interested in   some uh for example some views that the republican  party status uh stands for um the you know for   example uh lower taxes um and you know that's not  the same thing as saying we're republican district   so um i don't think any community is going to  get anywhere if they try to say well we're all   republicans we're a community and we're in  this area so we should be have a district so   same for democrats you know i mean we can't say  that we are um pro-welfare or whatever or whatever   democrats are um and make that fly with the  commission so um i actually think that communities   are going to think about what their actual needs  are what they're looking for from their state and   federal government and go from there and i hope  that that's what the commission will work with kermit go ahead yeah i just wanted to piggyback  on uh what sandy was saying i think one of the   things is more people need to be heard at the  table in order to make those districts fairer   if uh if there's only three or four people that  testify at a given meeting uh then those people   are going to have the strongest voice and  they'll end up with the strongest map because   they've pushed their issues in their agenda  so it's very important that people of all   ideologies make their voices heard  at these tables so regardless if it's   republican democrat independent everybody needs to  speak up in order for those maps to be right when   we have them because they're there for 10 years  that's right yes go ahead nancy well and and you   know we do get a lot of questions about well will  we end up with this or will we end up with that   and i think you know the focus really here is  and then the intention behind the amendment was   was to level the playing field you know  it was to reform the process so it's not   to do something to give one party an advantage  but it's to make redistricting fair impartial   you know impartial meaning not you know helping  one party or candidate or or another and then   completely transparent so if someone wants to  advocate for their community to be kept intact   for this or that reason they have to justify  it like connie said um and then the commission   once it's adopting these lines or those lines it  has to explain its rationale for doing that and   it has to be you know for one of the reasons  that's that's allowed within the constitution connie andy go ahead yeah i think it's important  to keep our eye on like we can talk about what's   you know is this more important in drawing a  district or is that more than drawing a district   and the fact is that some of these priorities  compete with each other yeah like the communities   of interest and the compactness you might have to  draw a funky line to keep a community of interest   together or and and there are at the end of  the day here there are going to be people who   are going to be mad about the way the lines get  drawn like there's only so many ways to carve   to carve these districts up and  it's not ever going to be perfect   there are going to be people at the end who feel  like they still got the shafts here they're going   to be like what the heck this didn't i didn't get  any any better deal here but what's important is   the process is vastly different that it's not the  the political parties themselves that are making   the decisions it's a public commission out in the  open as was described here up front and that's   that's the major difference that i think we're all  putting our faith in that that alone is head and   shoulders above better than than just letting  politicians draw the lines voter's not politic   most genius name for an organization ever happened  in my political lifetime by the way that was great go ahead connie andy's right of course that  not everybody will be happy with the lines   as they're ultimately drawn but i hope those  people who are not happy will at least have   participated so they don't blame themselves  for the lines being put in the wrong place it's all of our jobs to participate and  make sure the commission is as well informed   as possible about where we  want the lines to be and why connie this question this next question is  actually for you how is the commission ensuring   that not just the politically aware are showing up  and participating in meetings how is the community   reaching beyond just community leaders to achieve  more citizen input well actually the commission   isn't ensuring that yet but i think they will  i know that they're concerned about having   community of interest testimony and involvement  in large quantities the group that is doing   a particularly great job of trying to involve  many communities of interest across the state   is the one presenting this webinar tonight the  close-up center at the ford school of u of m   they have had students out identifying thousands  of communities of interest across the state trying   to get contact information for them and then  writing them about the redistricting process   and the resources available to them so  that they will have a chance to participate   and i think that the commission will use close-ups  information in sending out its own notices   to inform as many people as possible across  the state and then as i mentioned earlier there   are many non-partisan groups like voters not  politicians the michigan nonprofit association   the league of women voters promote the vote and  so on and we're all out there trying to scare up   as many participants as possible finding  communities of interest wherever we can go ahead rebecca yes just echoing um everything  that has been said um and by connie too   and i think the commission's plan to host  these town halls with various zip codes   within accounting within a county is an important  piece and should be prioritized and i would also   like to add that um you know prioritizing those  conversations with each of the ethnic groups   that compress the community um it is it  is critical to have these open dialogues   that encourage residents to voice their  needs and feel that their voices are heard   if we truly listen to our communities it would  help build that relationship and the trust   between the communities and i feel once these  conversations are held and i can't stress enough   how important this is um and once we've taken  that time to reflect on this conversation and   look at everything that has been said as a whole  um and that is a critical part everything as a   whole you can then identify areas where there may  be overlapping issues um shared gaps and needs and   this is the work that our organization and many  of the organization and the community are doing   day in and day out and i'm encouraged that  the commission is present and open to follow   this as well and this next question actually is  very related to that last point that you made   um and it's um towards the our community leaders  have your groups tried to work with other   communities of interest in nearby areas or are you  mostly working on your own and this is for rebecca   kermit and andy yes um api vote michigan is  part of a redistricting coalition um we've   already mentioned a few times michigan nonprofit  association has a coalition of 20 plus different   organizations at the table from different  ethnic groups that are working on redistricting   so all of our community organizations were  working together for the same common goal go   make sure that our voices are heard and  we're part of the table when the maps are dry i would i would say this idea of working on  our own versus working with others there's   a there's a balancing act to play there  well so if our argument in battle creek   is we should be with kalamazoo yes we've  had conversations with people in kalamazoo   like hey if hey kalamazoo if we go say this  like we're telling the truth right like   people we've talked to say well  yeah yeah of course you are   but there will be lots of communities around the  kalamazoo area that will conceivably want to say   well we want to we want to be with kalamazoo too  and depending on how the numbers and the census   come back like there might not be room in the  kalamazoo congressional district to fit all the   people who feel they're in a community of interest  with kalamazoo and so you know it's not up to the   people of battle creek to to go convince  someone they should in with kalamazoo like   those folks need to make that case on their own  and leave it to the to the commission to to take   you know those factors into account  and they're obviously will have to   delay you know overlay other other factors making  a decision of well okay here's where we're gonna   yes there's this community of interest but we're  gonna have to split that and you know it gets real   complicated quickly so yes and no you know it's  it's about self-determination right like we want   to determine our our future it's not our business  to tell other people what their future ought to be so uh at oakland forward uh we're doing of  course all of oakland county but we have six   target cities that we're focused on and we're  going to make sure that the commission hears   from them more than anybody else so we are very  unapologetically selfish in our viewpoints getting   to the commission and so we're going to make  sure that we have the town halls the meetings   and everything else to make sure that everybody  has a voice that we represent mostly and then   hopefully the maps will be fair but if those maps  come out the way we want them then that's going to   be on everybody else so i'm just letting people  know ahead of time that we are making sure that   our voices are heard and to go back to our earlier  question we're going to stack those commission   meetings so if it's two minutes per person we're  going to have 10 people so we get 20 minutes   that's what we're going to do that's the plan and  so everybody who's watching this call they need to   know that they're going to hear from not only open  forward but those key cities in oakland county   so they can get the best map possible so that's  what we're doing great it's good love to hear it   and we're just about wrapping up on our time for  questions and i apologize that we weren't able   to get to all the questions that were posed on  our stream but this last question is for connie   the coi process seems dependent on communities  mobilizing themselves how will the micrc conduct   outreach to potential leaders and communities  of interest that are not attending this webinar   um actually i think that's a question i've  already answered a little bit with close   up out there beating the bushes trying to find  communities of interest and the commission itself   the mic rc hasn't yet gotten to the point where it  is out beating the bushes but i know they intend   to they want to have as much testimony as possible  from communities of interest and they have put out   the locations where they will hold public hearings  assuming that the public hearings can be in person   not on zoom and they've tried to space them nicely  across the state and they're getting feedback   right now from the public about whether  they've selected the right places and how   to make the commission hearings as accessible as  possible and invite as many people as possible   i these commissioners are people who are very good  citizens they are taking lots of their personal   time to do the work for the whole state and  they're following the constitutional amendments   guidelines they're trying to be very careful we're  grateful to them and i know that they will go   out of their way to make sure that this process  works effectively the way it's supposed to work   and we're all happy that it's happening  this year yes it's very exciting i want to   as a wrap up thank all um of the audience for your  questions and thank the panelists for all of your   insights and your perspectives i'll now pass it  on to john to wrap up the event for the evening thank you miriam wow i want to thank you  for starting us off tonight with your video   and finishing it up with handling the questions  so we thank you for that we received many more   questions than we had an opportunity to  get to and we thank you for submitting them   and we hope that you're going to continue to  follow the redistricting in michigan um that   it's got a long way to go there's a lot  of action going to happen along the way   and i think that that there are resources that  you can use in addition to the media that you make   in contact with but with regular updates  on what's happening what happens when the   the public meetings uh public hearings occur  you'll be able to watch them on the website   there are lots of opportunities to stay involved  check the you know the commission's website they   have when they're meeting they have agendas they  have public comments that people have submitted   after a week or so they have minutes of what  happened at the meeting you might have not been   able to get to so they're very active they're  very public and i think if you're working with   a group of people who could divide up a bid who's  going to watch how much of a four-hour commission   meeting but the minutes are there they're  doing a very good job in contrast to the past   there's more information out there than  you can probably absorb as an individual   or in the past you read about it in the paper  after it happened so i think that um following   the commission uh close-up has information that  we will be collecting and putting up voters not   politicians uh the michigan nonprofit association  others will so there's plenty out there   and it's important to keep up with what's about  to happen next so that you're prepared when we   get there coming uh i should probably mention  that the micr is working on an outreach plan now   and it is possible to sign up for the email list  on their website so that when they're ready to go   you'll be informed it's also possible to send  them you know an email but since here are   some of the things i hope you're taking into  consideration as you move forward there are   you know public comments they're they're not  extensive but almost every meeting a couple   of people write in and uh it's a chance  to you know get in on the discussions   before decisions are made about what they're  going to do where they're going to do it and   in particular how they're going to handle virtual  meetings because it won't probably come to that so   we hope that that tonight has you know wedded  your appetite for spending even more time   uh worrying about these things than you  might have been we hope you'll stay in touch   and go out there and spread the  word so thank you and good night